Making Church Uncomfortable

I’m on a 24 hr personal retreat to clear my head—and heart. I usually take way too many books, perhaps a defense against idle time. But then, I realize when I arrive that retreats are about unoccupied time. Nonetheless, I soon became captivated with a recent book, “Jim and Casper Go to Church”. Jim is 59, a believer who is an executive director. Casper is younger, a marketing copywriter, with a world view vastly different than Jim’s. Casper is an atheist. Together they embarked on journey to visit twelve churches, from fundamental to Pentecostal, from Saddleback to Willow to Mosaic, to coming to Portland and attending Imago Dei and The Bridge. The book is a collection of their impressions, with an emphasis on how an atheist sees the contemporary church.

I read this because, as a pastor, I am really interested in how those outside the faith view the church and its culture. I realize that those on the outside can be critical of the church (not to mention those on the inside!). But those on the outside, like Casper, can often see with a clarity that those of us on the inside, immersed in church culture, gradually lose.

What Casper observed was not too surprising. In most of the services they attended (and these are the churches that often get the press), worship came off as “slick”, “contrived”, and “professional”. To Casper, Christians seem to put most of their energies in putting on a killer show. Of one encounter with a well known pastor, Casper commented, “It seemed as if he was not listening, so much as trying to control the conversation.” (Ouch!) Casper also wondered why the 11:00 hour seems to be the most segregated moment of the week. Churches do not do too well at integrating ethnically, let alone generationally, though they preach unity, and this atheist was quick to observe the discrepancy. He also could not understand why, for all the posturing, all the declarations about the nature of God’s word, that it played such a minimal role in most of the preaching he heard. Sadly, the famine in all too many places continues.

But here is what struck me. Casper found himself often asking—where is the call for action?  If Christians believe everything Scripture declares, they would want to do something significant on earth. Pastors would be these clarion voices calling for people to rise and change things. The only real call to action Casper observed, and it ranged from fearless to relentless, was—“Give us money—and lots of it!”

I began asking myself, “So am I calling people to action?” And if it is too often missing, is it because I am afraid to put off people? Am I not taking the Word seriously, that the text always calls for some response, almost always calls for radical change? What if I preached Ephesians 3, declaring that one of our most compelling witnesses to the truth of the gospel is that, in Christ, Jew and Gentile, Anglo and Hispanic, 20 somethings and those of an older generation can, must love and embrace each other? And then I asked—so what are we going to do in light of this truth? What will be your first step? What if I gave a call to action—“Open up your home this week and show hospitality to someone of another ethnicity”?  And if you are unwilling—I am not preaching Ephesians 4 till we get it right! What if I preached the story of Matthew inviting Jesus to his pagan party and challenged all of us to show grace like Jesus, such that we get invited to the world’s parties? What if I made it a call to action? Recently, I preached out of I Cor 5, where Paul calls for the handing over of a sinner to Satan. What if I called the people to action—to take those who are unwilling to repent and give them over?

Maybe people would get upset. Or maybe people would enter worship with crash helmets, realizing that are about to enter into high risk territory, where the word is going to call for some action that will lead to becoming more like Jesus. And maybe those on the outside, like Casper, would say—perhaps there is something here in the church that has the ring of truth and authenticity. They really believe what they are hearing from God.

Comments

[Romanós]

"I’m on a 24 hr personal retreat to clear my head—and heart. I usually take way too many books, perhaps a defense against idle time."

If you're on a personal retreat, why are you blogging?
Why do you take any books? Only One Book is needful, the Word of God.
What idle time? It's not idleness to sit at the feet of the Master. Mary, He says, chose the better part. She did exactly that.

"I soon became captivated with a recent book…"

Is this bondage to novelty maybe an addiction? How loud must His words be shouted in your direction, "There is one thing you lack. Go and sell everything you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow Me."

"But those on the outside, like Casper, can often see with a clarity that those of us on the inside, immersed in church culture, gradually lose."

If that's true, then are you admitting that being "immersed in church culture" is actually detrimental to clear vision of the Truth? And if so, can you in good conscience make a livelihood of hiding the Truth from people, while atheists give it out for free? Maybe immersion in church culture is just another form of bondage or addiction. Could it be that what Christ means by "church" and what you mean by it simply have nothing in common? Could it be that from Christ's viewpoint, church "culture" is the complete absence of human constructs?

"He [Casper, the atheist] also could not understand why, for all the posturing, all the declarations about the nature of God’s word, that it played such a minimal role in most of the preaching he heard."

Could that be the logical conclusion of a process in which no one expects to do what the Word commands, and therefore, it can be retired from action, taking the role of "Book emeritus" and yielding its place to "Christian tabloids"?

"If Christians believe everything Scripture declares, they would want to do something significant on earth. Pastors would be these clarion voices calling for people to rise and change things."

This may be what conclusion an atheist would come to, but for us who claim Christ as Lord, Savior and God, it's sheer nonsense. Christ did not come to inaugurate a religion, a social or political revolution, or a prosperity plan. He came teaching truth and preaching liberty to the captives, yes; He came working miracles and even physically raising the dead, yes; but what the world respects Him for the least is what He came to us to do the most—to lay down His life that we might live, and not for today only, but for eternity. What "something significant on earth" can we Christians do? Live the good news, be salt and light, that the world will see and give praise to our Father in heaven. This is not programs and church functions. This is living the way of the Cross of Christ, being willing to lay down our lives for our brothers (yes, even our neighbors) day by day, loving and inviting to salvation one soul at a time, whoever God places in our path.
Do we need "pastors" to sound a "clarion call" to make us "rise and change things"?
I think not. Besides, we are not here to change things, but to change our lives and those of others around us, again, one soul at a time, beginning with our own. All this is actionable, without the prompting of "pastors", if the sheep know the Master's voice. But what if the "pastors" drown out the Master?

"Am I not taking the Word seriously, that the text always calls for some response, almost always calls for radical change?"

There's no such thing as "radical change" in the life of Christ, so you may as well just put that jargon away, if you want to get down to being serious with God. Neither He nor His people are impressed with your trendy, meaningless vocabulary. You may have become so "immersed" ("immured" might be a better word) in "church culture" and so accustomed to the automatic responses (or non-responses) of your target audience, that you even fool yourself into believing you're actually saying something that has meaning when you throw these clichés around, but honestly, they don't mean a thing.

Get back to the Word of God, in simplicity, and if you want to minister to others and not just lubricate their vanity, get down off the Throne and truly yield it to Him to whom it alone belongs. When you do that, then you can speak for Him and minister in His name. Until then, you're just locked in an endless "game of church," with your minds captive and captivated by each new play, in bondage to dead works so deeply entrenched that you don't realise anymore that God's world is still out there waiting to see and hear the only, the everlasting, good news of Jesus Christ.

"And maybe those on the outside, like Casper, would say—perhaps there is something here in the church that has the ring of truth and authenticity. They really believe what they are hearing from God."

Sorry, Casper my friend, and pastor Johnson my brother, but it doesn't make any difference at all whether we impress Casper with our outward performance, or whether we let him see us and evaluate us for what we are. "What description can I find for this generation? It is like children shouting to each other as they sit in the marketplace: We played the pipes for you, and you wouldn’t dance; we sang dirges, and you wouldn’t be mourners."

I hope you will really take a 24 hour retreat sometime. Just take your Bible with you and go meet the Lord in a lonely place. Read the Word when He wants to speak to you through it. Pray and talk to Him as man and God, face to face. Let Him convince you that Mary really did choose the better part. Then, you won't need to prove to anyone, that a man can lay claim only to what is given him from heaven. Finally, you will be able to hand out to others what the Lord (and not the latest author) will give you.

No more mountains of books. Just the Book.
And the only Author with whom we have to do.

[Jerrilyn]

Dear Romanos,

What is up with the tone bro? I have gone over your response a couple of times and pretty much struck with the image that you enjoy picking out the speck (although I couldn't find it) in another's eye, while all along avoiding the plank in your own.

Hey, maybe a 24 hour retreat with God's word would do you some good too.

Your sister in Christ

[Jim Henderson]

John

Well I guess with Romanos weighing in there is no need for me to explain why Casper came to the conclusions he did.

Anyway you said this

"What if I preached the story of Matthew inviting Jesus to his pagan party and challenged all of us to show grace like Jesus, such that we get invited to the world’s parties"

What a great standard to set. There are two spiritual practices we know Jesus participated in frequently - Prayer and Parties

We have heard alot about one but little about the other. We are embarassed that our leader was so wordly. We have allowed people like Romanos to hijack him and park him inside the tent of religion.

They want to scare us off from trying to rescue Jesus and take him public but if you ever mention your party with jesus program (which I highly reccomend) you will be heading off in the right direction.

Dont be afraid

Jim and Casper

[pilgrim]

My response is in defence and for clarification of Romanós' original comment.

First, I am in agreement with Romanós. His comment was not an attack or a defamation through slander. His is simply a message of advice and rebuke, though some might see it as strong, and Pastor Johnson can either take it as such or ignore it. The irony is that many people today are too sensitive for strong words and rebuke, yet de-sensitized to sin, the world and judgment. Is not the Pastor's post on uncomfortable and tough church? Yet when someone does what he proclaims in his post, others seem abashed and shocked? Which is it, people?

If the Pastor can take guidance from a book where a Christian Minister hires a self-proclaimed atheist (something about that does not seem right) to go to church with him (according to the Amazon.com book description), then surely he can hear the words of one from the Orthodox of the east. If not, then this IS truly a game, another version of λογομαχίας. And we are warned against this in the Apostle's teachings.

Pastor John...I know you do not respond to anyone who comments on your blog. I can understand your reasoning for this, somewhat. But just like Νικόδημος, the one who won distinction among the people, and the other leaders who believed in Messiah Jesus, Pastors and Ministers and Leaders today have much, much to lose, and some want to meet with the Lord secretly, not to cause any disturbances. Meanwhile, many of us have already been pushed out of the world, out of the fold and even out of the institutional church. We are like the disciples and Peter who answered after Christ asked them, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" We hope to say, "Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of everlasting life." We have nothing to lose, so we can be bold in what we say, for we know the world will always hate us and even more so, the institutional church. Yet we continue to hold out the light of the gospel; that Mashiach is risen and redemption is for all who believe and that He is coming again soon, in power and glory, with His holy angels and with fire. Those who hold to this in perseverance will never be shakened. And this is what perseverance is. To hold to that testimony no matter what the world or the various sects of Christendom come of with. This is perseverance; to live on even though society and culture changes, as well as dogmas teachings, relevance and things that are currently "in". The will to live for Christ is the strongest of all things and cannot be defeated. The will to live is perseverance. To live is Christ. The will to live and to be unchanging in this world, is part of the Light and the Truth. This is why these books have no effect on us and why we care very little for the latest trends and stats. They are not needed.

I do not doubt your faith Pastor, but the methods of the institutional church and mainly "Christian Culture" are wrong. You are caught in the middle of it. No matter how many books you read or plans and programs are put in place, you'll never be able to find a solution. It is only going to get worse. Yet the true solution is right in front of you and all of us. Christ now!

[jennifer yamashiro]

I spent a good part of my life not wanting anything to do with Christianity-and the constant bickering within the faith was one of my reasons why. I wonder if the Pharisees also thought they were doing good when they spent so much time on their soap boxes telling everyone else how to live out his or her faith. What I love about many of the church leaders I've come to know since giving my life to Christ (Pastor John included) is that they are transparent in their daily struggles of living as Christ wants us to...and living to die each day to themselves so the world can see who Christ is and why He longs for everyone to live recklessly for Him. Jesus used preaching, parables and the way He lived to show us all how we can achieve intimacy with Him and be the followers that He created us to be. No church is perfect...but without the theological wisdom, community, love and accountability I have experienced with the community of believers I worship with (which all work together to point me to the One I live for), I would be completely lost-in every sense of the word.

[jennifer yamashiro]

PS-We are disciples and people's lives are at stake. Let's spend the precious time we have here on earth focusing on those who don't know Christ instead of using that time discussing the best way to reach the them.

[pilgrim]

This is my last comment on this blog and to Village Baptist Church.

First, Jennifer--It’s not about bickering...it’s about instigation. Knowingly or unknowingly, the world of Christian media, the current culture of Christendom and many of these books are used to instigate and create shock-value. As you can see, it was successful because the people it uses and makes fools of are people like Romanós and myself. Why does it make fools of us? Because we are fools for Christ Jesus. We speak up and confront the above things when they go this far and thus, we appear to almost everyone as idhiótes and to you Jennifer and those who have commented, as Pharisees.

And why do we appear like this? Because we are trying to hold onto what has been entrusted to everyone who believes; the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. We do not want to compromise, nor sell Christ to the world. If the above mentioned things were not used as bait and traps for others, as fuel for arguments, let alone created, this would not be taking place. But because many want to be first, and because instigation, shock-value and appearing to be avant garde are a current disease in Christendom, this will continue to happen. This shows how righteousness and living a Spirit-filled life have nearly disappeared from our history.

People think that they can do anything, as long as they put the stamp of “Christian” or “church” on it. They also do not want to be responsible for what they say or what they produce, whether it is words, books or what not. But every word will be judged by the living Christ at His béma seat.

Now, this is my testimony concerning Village. I did not want to do this, but I have been driven to do it. I attended Village for over a year and a half. At one point I was told by an individual on staff that I should leave and go worship elsewhere if I did not agree with the direction of the church. The labor I was doing downtown, public reading of the Scriptures and assisting whoever the Lord sent to Romanós and myself, was opposed my this individual and considered irrelevant and ineffective by others. Even Pastor Johnson told me that people don’t go downtown or to the Saturday Market to hear the Bible and he seemed to doubt whether it would be successful as well. But at least he said I should give it a try if I felt lead to do it. The results can be found on my personal blog.

Finally, after being ostracized for about six months, I complied with the request and did what they asked. Since then, I have continued to comment on the Pastor’s blog, yet to no avail. So, now, I’m finally cutting my ties.

Village is a fitting name for the congregation. For if any one stands out or speaks the truth, they are hammered, driven down like a protruding nail. Well, this nail only bent when you struck it. Therefore, you eventually had to rip it out.

May the Lord Jesus Christ, the judge of all men, reward you and give back to you all that you have done, even to me. May His will be done though, and not mine. Grace and peace in abundance.

pilgrim

[Julia Marrocco]

Wow,
I picked a good day to read this blog for the first time! Started MY heart beating! You all have great points. As I read the conversation I am reminded, as was Jennifer, of the Pharisees. We are all Pharisees to one degree or another, thanks to our human nature. The Screwtape Letters came to mind as I read what sounded like a bit of "biting" back and forth. I have been witness to three or four church "splits" in my life, and never really did understand them; I thought they were really over relatively immaterial differences. But this particular conversation concerns me because it smells of a split of some kind. This would be perfect timing for Satan to wriggle into the middle of our church body, make it seem major, and cause a split. (just as we begin to go to the next level of reaching out to the community with our hearts on fire for Christ) I pray this does not happen at Village. (maybe I'm over-reacting and you guys just always talk like this and it's your style. That's cool I guess....)
I have been reading Irshad Manji's book "The Trouble with Islam Today", and I find way too many parallels to the Christian church in the book. That is pause for thought. I do highly recommend the book, as it makes us realize how mjch kids question their established churches and seek the truth. (I don't think she's found it yet, but she's on her way, as we all are, to seeking the truth, even after we know Jesus; it certainly doesn't end there.)Paster John, I appreciate your transparency over your struggling with what's right and so on. Transparency is always better than show biz. And I'm sure you are used to half the people being mad at you all the time. Stay encouraged.
Right now I just want to say, I love you ALL for having the passionate hearts that you do...and for speaking up, wrestling with what's the right thing to say and do. Thank God we live somewhere we can even DO that without having the police break the door down and drag us off!! Amen?
Just a reminder to all of us that we (paraphrase) wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places. And there certainly is a lot of it. All we have to do is look into our own hearts. Let's remember to give everyone around us an EXTRA HUG today.. Lord knows we all need it, and those who don't know Jesus are DYING for it. Hugs are free.
You guys ROCK. Go spread His love in your own individual way, whatever that is.
Julia Marrocco

[Matt Mikalatos]

Hey Julia--

I just wanted to let you know that what you're seeing is not evidence of a split at Village.

The two guys who are writing the more critical essays above are Romanos and Brock (Pilgrim). Romanos is from a local Greek Orthodox church and Brock is a former Villager and close friend of Romanos.

Anyway, the guys drop by and make comments on John's blogs occasionally... those represented here are typical, so I won't elaborate on that.

Just thought I'd give a little context for any other new readers who might wander by. Thanks for your note and reminder to love each other, Julia!

[Chip]

Unfortunately, I believe the absence of Pilgrim's comments will be a step forward in the blog. Too often the comments aim to irritate and direct the discussion to details rather than "meat".

The church cannot disguise itself as what it is not, and one that concentrates on only "the show" is very evident. I do not believe Village has that problem, although I know it is hard for the church to ensure quality and professionalism while avoiding falling into "Performance" when bringing forth the same basic message for each of several services.

While there is evangelism occuring within the services, the vast majority of people present have already made the basic decision for salvation and need opportunity to learn more of God, worship Him, be part of "gathered prayer", fellowship with other believers and be "re-charged" for reaching out with Christ's Truth to those around them.

It is the believer's responsibility to do "reaching out" and it may take a long time before that "reached person" will be comfortable in a normal service. Inviting someone to church may not be nearly as fruitful as inviting them to participate in activities with other Christians. I have not read the book but it would seem Casper is only viewing one aspect of the church's ministry (the service) without being involved in the actual experience of participation in other aspects of the church's ministries.

I feel Village handles the balance pretty well. If Pilgrim and Romanos are called to declare Christ's Truth on the street, so be it, and blessings on them. That is the ministry they believe has called them. The typical posts I read by them only cause dissension. For me those posts have not come across with sincerity, but rather distraction from the message of the original blog.

[jennifer yamashiro]

One of the difficult things about commenting on a blog is that sometimes our comments are written out of anger and frustration. I shouldn't have compared anyone to the Pharisees and for that I am sorry. Some of the past comments we've seen here I know come from hearts who love Jesus, but can often seem devisive and insulting. We each have different methods for reaching the lost. But, because one thing is different form another does not make it wrong. I love art...nearly any kind, and when people use their artistic gifts to worship God, I feel alive. I know that others do not feel that way. But does that make me and the others who love art wrong? No. Julia-thanks for reminding us to look at the positive here. I know it sounds cliche, but I truly do wish that we could all get along and embrace our differences instead of fighting against them.

[Chris Mildner]

Pastor John, you always makes me think. Sometimes it's about how I can be closer to Christ and apply the Word to my life. Other times you do make a call to action in the world.

I think we need that balance because if we get too caught up in the action, we forget the relationship with Christ, and if we turn to much inward (or even churchward), we have no impact on the world for Christ.

And I love that you put your struggle to be a great pastor and Christian out there for us to share in. It demonstrates that relationship with Christ is not easy even for a pastor, but well worth the effort. The body needs to support and encourage you the same way you are always there for us.

How someone challenges him or herself to get closer to Christ is not important. We are all different because God made us that way. What is important is that you are moving closer to Christ. So whether it's reflection or a call to action, books, music or preaching at the Saturday market, the road does not matter as long as our journey needs to lead to Him.

So, please, Pastor John, please keep encouraging us toward the destination that is our Savior.

[Azure]

Village is a fitting name for the congregation. For if any one stands out or speaks the truth, they are hammered, driven down like a protruding nail. Well, this nail only bent when you struck it. Therefore, you eventually had to rip it out.

Hey pilgrim, have you ever read your own comments? Wait...let me answer that for you...that would be a...NO! I think you might wanna tell the whole story. Remember, some of us know the story...yes people like me. So tell the whole story. Maybe, you will get your wish pilgrim, hammered down like a nail...and you can bank on that..boy

[Ravensworth]

Azure,
Please, tell us the whole story. Your implication is intriging and your not-so-veiled threat revealing.